EDITOR'S note: To ease crowding in the central city, Shanghai has built several satellite towns in its suburbs. Have they improved the lives of residents? Dutch urban designer Harry den Hartog, an authority on Shanghai's urban planning history, spoke to Shanghai Daily opinion writer Ni Tao on October 13 about these issues. This is the second and final part of the interview.

Q: Given the explosive increase of private cars, isn't construction of new towns an ill-considered move as it will boost car sales and further snarl road traffic?

A: It may be a vicious cycle. That's also a problem with new towns in Europe or America.

Especially after World War II, people built many new towns in Europe but the infrastructure and urban transport were often not so good. So many new towns there ended up like sleeping cities. People lived there but traveled to old cities by car to work.

In Shanghai, people have built many subway lines in the past few years, so it is a big improvement if you compare it to the European situation. But it's still not enough. Shanghai needs more public transport, more subway, more buses.

In Jiading there is a very good subway connection now with the central city, that's Line 11 and Songjiang District has Line 9.

But the connection between the new towns is not so good. For example, if you are going from Qingpu District (in the west) to Lingang New Town in Pudong New Area (in the east), you'll have to make a long, tortuous journey. So the city is built on the basis of a centralized model, not a decentralized model. The Metro lines are still too much focused to People's Square. It should become more like a spider web.



Q: One consequence of the construction of new towns is that Shanghai has come to rely on other Chinese provinces for its food supply because arable land is dwindling. Are the new towns actually a problem for people's basic survival?

A: Shanghai is located in the Yangtze Delta area and the land here is very fertile.

But more and more land is occupied by infrastructure and some polluted by industry. The area for agriculture is progressively shrinking.

Urbanization takes up land. It's like choosing the lesser of two evils.

If you follow the decentralization model, there will still be arable land in between the new towns. The distance between land and the city is shorter. This is also the idea behind decentralization. It may be better not to build developments on the land for agricultural use but on land reclaimed from sea.



Q: At night many new towns are deserted "ghost towns." How many new towns can actually function?

A: It's different for every place.

In the 1990s, the city made the latest plan for decentralization.

Urban planners chose from more than 60 possible locations for new towns. Finally they selected nine locations, one in every suburban district, and invited foreign architects to carry out pilot studies for these new towns.

Every district chose one of two pilot locations. They have different policies and people. Some of the pilots are a success, some a mistake.

For instance, a British-style new town is more like a theme park, almost nobody lives in there. Commercially it may be a success but it's a ghost town. The blending of local and Western cultures is only in the facade.

In Luodian New Town in Baoshan District, things are much better. More people are living there. Maybe 40 to 60 percent of the houses there are occupied permanently. The percentage is not high but it's much better.



Q: Many Western designers working in China seem to lack knowledge about local conditions, such as Chinese preferences for houses oriented toward the sun. Why is that?

A: I think it's a result of different cultures.

Many houses in China are oriented toward the sun because many families don't have a washing machine. They are used to hanging the laundry outside and drying pickled vegetables outside.

It is also a way to get heat inside the houses. Actually it is a very ecological and sustainable way of life.

But in the West, most people have washing machines and there is not so much sunlight as here in Shanghai.

In the UK and the Netherlands, houses are oriented in all directions and don't necessarily face the sun.

Many Europeans designers didn't realize the difference. Hence their houses are very hard to sell.

I think many foreign architects and designers have learned the hard way that they ought to take into account the local habits such as drying laundry outside, local traditions, and maybe even feng shui.



Q: Do you think Western designers are given too much freedom in realizing their sometimes whacky renderings that are totally incongruous with their immediate surroundings, like Rem Koolhaas's design for the CCTV building?

A: For designers, more freedom is better. For the end-product users, the people, they want control sometimes.

I think experiments are generally good because they bring new ideas and ways to make better cities. Some experiments may fail.

In China there is a construction boom, with so many offices and high rises being built. It's an ideal place for experiments. But architects have to realize that they need to respect the environment, local traditions and the people who are going to use the buildings they design.

I think Rem Koolhaas knows what he is doing, but maybe sometimes he has gone a little bit wayward. There was some debate about Rem Koolhass in the Netherlands.

In Europe, there are many rules and guidelines for architecture. For example, there is always a limit on the height of buildings.

So in Europe there is some restriction of architects' freedom.

In China, it seems that you can build wherever you want, without thinking of the uses or surrounding environment. You need freedom but also supervision. You have to find the balance.

Skyscrapers make more efficient use of land in densely populated places like Hong Kong. Hong Kong is a good example because it has many skyscrapers but meanwhile retains its green areas.

So when you build skyscrapers, you should be aware of the need to match them with the environment. The first floor of skyscrapers has to have some public functions like shops, restaurants or other facilities.